IVC spoke Caucasian

Both occurrences of ilisu in fact observed in the regions where once Caucasian languages were spoken.

IVC spoke Altaic by Google

Almost all of Indian male lineages(IE and Dravidian) now appear to be derived from Central Asia region. Michael Witzel, Indologist believes Dravidians moved from Central Asia region crossed Eastern Iran and reached southern IVC region(present day Sindh in Pakistan). It looks like genetic studies do support that theory as neither Arab nor Mediterranean lineages observed among Dravidians.
Link
The article mentions a person named íu-iliSu, a translator from Meluhha. I just typed ilisu(iu ilisu did not return anything) and found villages with that names in Turkey and Azerbaijan, two Altaic countries. It's typical for Indians to keep village name as their second/first name. Probably, that person's name means íu from village iliSu(I am not sure about the sound changes as I can't pronounce that Altaic name).

Well, Michael Witzel believes IVC might have spoken an Austro-Asiatic language. But I wonder if it is possible for a civilized community to revert to tribalism. Is civilization just one way progress or can it go back to its tribalhood? If it was possible, what could be the reason? A loss of elite structure? Migration to places with remote chances of agriculture(IVC knew wheat cultivation)? How easy for an isolated tribe to come back to civilization? Would an occasional brilliant person from that tribe invest his/her time and energy in changing the whole tribe or would find it easier for him/her to merge with a civilized community by migrating. Will an isolated but close existence of a civilized community and a tribal community ensure a continued tribalhood(brain drain)? I am not sure, so I would rather think IVC must be either IE or Altaic.

Wheat and rice:
I don't think Dravidians of the past were either wheat or rice eaters. A big chunk of Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh still uses various millets for staple diet. Rice might have spread from North East region much later and as such did not reach North-West of South India.

Dravidian 'f' revisited

While most of the Karnataka learn 'p' , 'ppa' , 'ba', 'bha' and 'ma'. We, in Tulu region, learn it as 'pa', 'fa', 'ba', 'bha' and 'ma'. In high school, our Kannada teacher, a migrant from northern region, would just look at the ceilings and would say nothing when we repeat his ppa(or pha... but this does not give the clear sound) fa. I guess 'fa' has a charm that 'ppa' can't capture. I wonder if it was Konkanis who brought 'fa' sound to this region. For that matter, I am not even sure if Indo-Aryan languages have this sound.

Temple architecture of Kerala -I

The temple architecture in Kerala shows East Asian influences. Few have speculated a population from North-East/East Asian region moving to Kerala. Others have speculated the overwhelming Buddhist presence in the region.

I don’t find much merit in the population movement. Let’s consider Buddhism. I do not have much knowledge about the area from which Buddhism spread in Kerala. Buddhism that was prevalent in Kerala might have been Tantraism. And Eastern regions are the origin of this sect. However, I don’t think the Buddhists who came to Kerala could be from Eastern regions beyond India. That leaves us with only cult that came from regions outside the boundaries of present day India. And that is Natha cult of Nepal.

Natha cult:
According to few sources, that I have read, not much is known about this cult. But it is in this cult where Buddhism met Shivaism. Buddhists became Shaivas.

According to legends in my place(Mangalore), a Natha cult guru Matsyendranatha (or Minnatha, literally Lord of fish) from Nepal visited Mangalore(and even Kerala) around 10^th century. He propagated Shaiva Tantraism among Buddhists Tanriks*. One of his disciples was a queen called Mangale from an unknown(to me) Malayala region. She followed Matsyendranatha to Tulu regions along with her husband(to be precise, she followed her husband who was a follower of Minnatha) and two children. After few crazy incidents she would die tragically. And it looks like for some unknown reasons she was made goddess and the place was named Mangala Pura after her. Later the place came to known as Mangalooru (Or Mangalore) but Malayalees still call it Mangala Puram**. Now back to original topic.

In my opinion, the East Asian influence is because of Nepal connection through Natha cult. Nepal architecture has obvious Sino-Tibetan features. Probably, sculptors, architects from Nepal followed Natha cult gurus to Tulu/Malayala regions. I am not sure how many of these temples are older than 1000 years.

*Another region where Natha cult became popular was Bengal. No wonder, both Malayala/Tulu and Bengal regions show very strong Tantrik tradition even today.

**The native Tuluvas call the region “Kudla”. Fits well with my Tala people theory with little bit stretching(tala-> kada).

The Dravidian movements

In this post, I am trying to delve into various studies that may throw some light into spread of Dravidian speakers.

The original Dravidians were not Mediterranean:
As the genetic studies point out the original Dravidian speakers could be only found in present day Iran, Afghanistan or in Pakistan and not beyond that. Neither Mediterranean nor West Asian(present day Semitic lands) origins can be sustained considering the lack of E3b and J1 among Dravidian speakers. Till date J1 is observed in only one Irula tribal (Sengupta et al. 2006). Probably, showing earlier migration from that region.

Who are Barahs?
Other day I read that an Akkadian king defeated Elamites and Barahs. Who were these Barahs? Could they be the present day Brahuis? Elamites ruled South-West of present day Iran. May be Barahs inhabited Eastern Iranian regions close to present day Pakistan.

Pukku-Mekku and Kutti-Donne:
I was browsing thro’ Sumerian language page. Something caught my eye in FAQ page. It was about two instruments called pukku-mekku(probably, in Akkadian language). It was speculated that these two instruments were used in some game. Some experts have reconstructed that game as Polo, with pukku meaning a wooden ball or puck for Polo and mekku meaning mallet. But not all experts are clear about this. These words were attested in Gilgamesh written around 2650 BCE but horse was introduced in Sumerian society around 2000 BCE and as such was called “ass from foreign countries”. Therefore, this game could possibly not Polo. However, the wooden ball and stick could be precursor to Polo. I wonder how the game with that wooden stick and wooden ball was played.

Sumerians ruled present day southern Iraq. There were many cultural exchanges with the neighbouring countries. If Dravidians were living an area close to Sumerians(like in Iran and as mentioned above eastern region), I suppose there could have been some cultural exchanges between Sumerians and Dravidians too. I wonder if our game called Kutti-Donne played with a small wooden stick with pointed ends and around 4-5” long and another a foot long stick is similar to the game with pukku-mekku. I don’t think if I remember the game correctly but here is a small description of the game. In fact, I didn’t like the game much and thought it was too boring.

In the beginning a small ditch with 2-3” length and 1” in depth is dug. The small stick pointed at both ends(known as kutti) is placed across that hole. The game starts with the player with the mallet ( called donne) lifting the kutti using donne. All other players stand around him anticipating to catch the kutti. The player with donne has to lift the kutti with his back to other players. The player places his legs across the hole and bending front tries to lift kutti behind his back using his donne. If the kutti is caught by one of the surrounding players then the player with donne is “out” of the game. If he manages to lift the kutti into a safe place, he can continue the game. In this case, he will get a bonus hit. One of the surrounding players throws the kutti at him and donneman hits it with all his might(if he misses no problem). Then he counts the distance travelled by the kutti from his standing place using the donne. The game is continued by hitting the kutti at one of the pointed ends and when it rises in the air giving it another shot. Again, the distance travelled by the kutti is calculated as before. I think game continues until donneman misses the hit to the rising kutti. What a boring game! It seems Sumerians would stop the game of pukku-mekku for the day and continue it next morning. I believe kutti-donne can continue any number of days.

Southerners and AIDS:
A recent study by Hyderabad based Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology(CCMB) says that southern Indians(Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu) are more prone to HIV and as such 75% of the cases in India is reported from these regions. Two out of five genes that make people vulnerable to this virus is prevalent among southerners.

As I have already discussed Dravidian speakers spread from the region of Maharashtra to other southern regions. Those two genes might have appeared(or became activated for some reasons) and spread only after Dravidian speakers reached the region of present day Maharashtra. If this is not the case you must find these in Gujaratis and Rajastanis too.

The original Dravidian sound is 'f' and not 'p'

Of all Dravidian languages only Kannada shows p->h sound change(as far as I know). Some people believe this change was brought about by literature in the 14th-15th century. That means majority people would have been still using 'p' till very recently. Something I find difficult to believe. In my opinion, the change from p->h in literature during medieval times had occurred because a big section of population was already using 'h'.

During my discussion with Maju(at Atlantis), he mentioned that Basque influence resulted in dropping of initial 'f' and replacement with 'h' in certain Latin words. eg. fablar -> hablar

I believe this must be the case with Kannada too. All other Dravidian languages show f->p change but Kannadaites* somehow dropped the letter completely. At least one Sanskrit word with Dravidian root show the original sound. eg. phala = fruit.

* It looks like prevalent identification term for Kannada people is Kannadiga. However, in Kannada that means Kannada male whereas a Kannada female is called Kannaditi . I am bit uncomfortable using Kannadiga to denote all Kannada speakers. I am not sure what should be the unisex word for Kannada speakers. Kannadaite or Karnatakan or Kannadee. Well, just Kannada does not sound anything unlike. I mean you can say he/she is a Telugu or he/she is a Tamil and that sounds somethinng but he/she is a Kannada sounds nothing.

Brownwashed - II

This brown farce continues to annoy me. I am not sure if people really know whether this identity can stand on its own and is not hierarchical. I have read/heard persons with brown identity complaining how a fat white lady treated them or a yellow, not even white, lady overlooked them. The fundamental flaw in this identity comes out in the subtle identification with other perceived not-so ideal stereotypes. I mean why do you want an identity which when good people who raise their voice against racism makes them sound not-so analytical.

If any colour that one wants identify it should be either white or black and nothing in-between. In my opinion racism has only two colours, black and white. When one is vicitmized because of his skin colour then he is black. Again, he can be white when he enjoys a movie where mentally disturbed heroine taunts a dark skinned person as "negro" all the time and that viewer thinks that is a great sense of humour. If you feel you can't identify with somebody then you are white. If somebody feels that he can't identify with you then you are black. Anyway, if a person never had any sense of his colour in his multi-colour country; why would he go for an identity based on it in some other country.

South Dravidian languages - V

Probably, now nobody believes that tribals of South India were the original speakers of Dravidian languages. In fact, Haplogroups H and R2 are too old to be associated with Dravidian languages. I wonder what would be the language spoken by these tribals prior to their Dravidisation. I believe it should be Austro-Asiatic. However, I am not sure if Austro-Asiatic substratum could be observed among Dravidian languages. Or could it be Burushaski languages? I wonder if it is possible to detect the substratum of dead linguistic families. But before that more on movement of South Dravidian languages.





It is very evident that Proto-Kolami Parji all other tribal languages in fact branched main Proto languages for Telugu, Kannada, Tamil and Tulu. In my opinion Proto-Tamil-Kannada should be the sub-branch of Proto-Tulu-Kannada.

The language could become independent in a region owing to;
1. Sound changes due to migrations to different geographic location.
2. Adoption by non-native speakers.
-> There are two cases in this. In the first case, the natives would adopt an alien language. In the second case, migrants would adopt the local language.

Let's see if the above language tree supports the migration theory along river Godavari, then coastal Karnataka and then along river Kaveri.

South Dravidian -II(Central):
If you observed Proto-Telugu-Kui branches before Proto-Kui-Gondi. But Gondis are found in Eastern Maharashtra. SD-II might have branched from SD-1 before that region. I mean close to coastal Maharashtra. This Proto-Telugu then moved to Northern Andhra and then spread to South. If you observe except Telugu all other languages in this family spoken by only tribals. But it should be noted that Proto-Telugu does not exist as a sub-family of any of those tribal languages. In my opinion, if the Central-South Indian tribals spoke Dravidian languages first then linguistic construction must be able to trace non-tribal language to tribal languages. On the contrary here we find Proto-Gondi-Kui traced to Proto-Telugu-Kui.

South-Dravidian -II(Meridional):
Unlike SD-II, SD-I speakers didn't come across many tribals in South India. Probably, when the migration took place South India was sparsely populated. This family has four mainstream languages and few tribal languages. As I discussed above the split from SD-II should have happened somewhere in coastal Maharashtra(until this time SD-I and SD-II called number eight as enuma*).

Proto-Tulu-Kannada:
This group must have moved along Krishna basin and coastal region. The group moved along Krishna basin became Kannadigas. The group moved along coastal region became Tuluvas.

Proto-Tamil-Kannada:
This is the sub-group of Proto-Tulu-Kannada(the split from Proto-Tulu-Kannada could be seen in the word for number eight where it is now called entu*). This group moved along the river Tungabhadra reached the region of Kaveri river in Kodagu.

Proto-Tamil:
From the region of Kaveri in South Karnataka, it's the movement of Proto-Tamil people. As they moved most of tribes on trail adopted Dravidian languages which later became independent. The stretch from Kodagu to Nilgiri hills nicely shows origins of Kodava, Toda, Kota along the way. Irula was the last tribe to adopt Dravidian language. In the case, of Malayalees it's the change from one Dravidian language (Proto-Tulu) to another Dravidian language. However, Proto-Tulu was adopted by tribals like Koraga in Northern Malabar districts.

Later Kannada movements:
Kannada could have been mostly spoken in Northern Karnataka and Southern Maharashtra* initially. But later it made inroads into Southern Proto-Tamil regions along Kaveri river but lost its identity in Southern Maharashtra.

Kodava question:
It looks like Kodavas were present in the region before Proto-Tamil speakers migrated there. This is bit difficult believe as Kodavas are supposedly later migrants to that region. If we can show that language became distinct after some of the Dravidian languages in the region next to it then we can say Kodavas are the later migrants. But this tree does not show that. However, one at Encyclopedia Britannica gives a different picture. According to it, Proto-Tamil-Kodagu branches after Proto-Tamil-Toda. This might show later non-native speakers migrating to that place adopting Proto-Tamil.

*In my opinion,archaic forms of a language could be found in a population that is;
- migrant to a different linguistic place
- uninfluenced/isolated native speakers
The Tamil Brahmins in Karnataka who migrated 800 years back from the region of Tamil Nadu supposedly exhibit archaic Tamil forms in their speech.
The Havyaka community in coastal region show archaic Kannada words in its speach. The region they inhabit is originally a Tulu speaking(Uttara Kannada) region. The region where archaic Kannada was spoken could be mainly in Northern Karnataka or Southern Maharashtra or could even be North-Western Andhra Pradesh(Krishna basin).

I felt Kurukh(belonging to North-Dravidian linguistic family) sounded like Havyaka Kannada. The Kurukh people even have a folklore that they migrated from Northern Karnataka. In all probability, Kannada took its form in Northern regions, then influenced southern regions whose proto-language could be close to Proto-Tamil.

Similarly, Telugu took its form in Godavari basin and later influenced Western Krishna basin where the population could have been speaking a language close to Proto-Kannada.

Whereas, Tulu regions were encroached by both Kannada in the North and Tamil in the South in the later period.

Suvarnabhumi - a propaganda

After reading the ongoing controversy about a region called "Suvarnabhumi" , I couldn't resist myself from indulging in some propaganda. The article in Wikipedia speaks in different tones about the region mentioned in Buddhist literature. So, I am not sure if this name is really part of Ashoka's edicts or just an imagination of Sri Lankan Buddhist monks.

Back to Tulu tribes:
The lineages of Tulu tribes (bari/bali/illam) have unknown origins(means I do not have any idea about their meanings). Let's consider that some might denote the region names. And here I find some material for my propaganda.

One of the major lineages(probably the biggest) of Tulu communities is called "Suvarna". And the reason I think it may denote region name is because Malayalam equivalent of this bali is known as "Konkani"(which is the biggest lineage of Malayalee community/ies in Kasaragod/Mangalore). The region Konkana is arbitrarily defined one. I suppose it's generally considered as the region stretching from West coastal Maharashtra to Karnataka. But it looks like one of the Puranas(mythologies) even include Kerala.

Etymologies:
It is here that everything becomes mere propaganda. "Suvarna" has a very clear meaning in Sanskrit( gold). But unfortunately only "folk" etymology exists for Konkana(kum = "mother" earth, kana=dust).

There are Tamil communities identified as "Konga"*. Did they migrate from South-West coastal India to Tamil regions? Another, not-so-known, kingdom was called Konkanam supposedly included the regions of Kannur and Kasaragod and believed to be 2000 years old.

Let's consider that Kongas were the migrants to South-Eastern Karnataka and Tamil Nadu at a later time from the region of Konkana(probably, along Kaveri route). That may show that Konkana has to be divided into Konka + ana (aNa) and not kum + kana.

Now, this division gives it Dravidian form. Unfortunately, my limited knowledge in Dravidian vocabulary(and grammar) is the stumbling block here. I could think of only few examples for this case.

Consider four cardinal directions in Kannada; moodu (east), padu(west), tenku(south) and badagu(north). But I am not sure if "ana" means direction or region. Anyway, the words do exist as moodana (moodu + ana), puduvana (padu + ana) etc... in Kannada. Well, if ana means direction then Konkana means "konka" direction. But if it means region then Konkana means "konka region". And later meaning makes sense.

Now, konka. If there is a Prakrit word konka ( an equivalent for Sanskrit word kanaka meaning gold) meaning gold, I can go further.

But why this region was called "land of gold" when you hardly find any gold mines here. Absolutely, no idea. But this is just a propaganda.

*A derogatory term for all Tamils by Mysore region Kannadigas just as "Pandy", derived from Pandya kingdom of Tamil Nadu, is derogatory term for Tamils by Malayalees. Looks like everybody in the South were pissed off by Tamils from time immemorial. Of course, I do not know Tamil derogatory words for Malayalees and Kannadigas.

Origins of Indians : Version 5.0

Indian male lineages:
It is becoming increasingly clear that there is no major contribution from Arab lands and from Mediterranean countries(Anatolia, Turkey) to Indian male pre-historic population.

None of the Indian Y-lineages F,H,R(xR1b),G,J2, C(xC3) have exclusive distribution beyond Iran,Afghanistan. Arab lands are characterized by heavy presence J1 and E3b, Mediterranean again E3b and R1b.

Indo-European homeland:
I don't know where it is. But if it's in Russian lands or in Balkans or in Anatolia, then the Indo-Aryans who moved to India were in fact secondary or tertiary IE people.

Russian lands: We should find I, R1b and N3(benchmark is Brahmin population). Status: Till date not observed.
Balkans: Again I. Status: Till date not observed.
Anatolia: R1b, E3b. Status: Till date not observed.

The Indo-Aryan Urheimat:
The region which became linguistically and culturally IE but not much genetically is certainly beyond IVC areas. But not much far away. In my opinion, the pre-historic Indians that came in contact with primary or secondary IE people must be in Afghanistan.

The connection between Chitpavan Brahmins and Burushos:
Almost all the Brahmin communities show in South and East show a greater presence of R1a1. A feature characteristic of present day Pakistan and North-West of India. However, Gaekwad et al. 2005 study had an interesting distribution of Haplogroups among Chitpavans.

While other castes had R1a1 in great number, this particular caste had R1a*. Ibra, a man from Meluhha whose spirit lives in distant Arctic tundra lands, has communicated that lack of funds might have stopped them from testing for marker M17(which identifies R1a1) for those samples. A highly plausible scenario(as rest of the later studies didn't find any R1a* and R1a1 frequency increased dramatically) but I still prefer to think that they in fact couldn't detect M17 in those samples. In my opinion, after M207 they tested for M17 directly as other intermediate Haplogroups are hardly observed. Therefore, I have grouped all those R1a* under R* and compared with them Burushos(From Sengupta et al. 2006 study).


Burusho Chitpavan
R* 20% 31%
L3 15% 17%
R2 15% 11%
H 15% 14%
R1a1 10% 5%
C3 5% 3%
G5 5% 1.5%(F*)
J2 5%(J2b) 12%(J2a)
K2 5% 3%
O3e 5%
P* 3%

There are many theories about Chitpavans' migration to Maharashtra. In my opinion, the one that says they were from Afghanistan(or Northern Pakistan) has a higher weight. The isolated Burushos might have escaped Indo-Europeanization. However, Indo-Europeanization of North India might have helped from Indo-Aryanization of sparsely populated area first and then gradually moving to denser areas.

The indigenous Aryans:
Both Sengupta et al. 2006. and the present Thanseem et al. 2006 studies have observed that Haplogroup H1(M52) though the biggest, has the lowest dieversity of all the major Haplogroups of India. Haplogroup H*(M69) clan is generally considered the earliest settlers(after coastal migration lineages of C and D) of India. However, it looks like this clan was restricted for a long time when R1a1, R2, J2 and L started populating the subcontinent.

However, Haplogroup H1 then suddenly had a greater fecundity success, probably due agriculture and may also be due to tribal kingdoms taking shape all over Central-South India in historical times. This clan though too old to be identifed with either Aryan or Dravidian speaking populations(though could be Austro-Asiatic along with R2 and J2b) but evidently speaking both Dravidian and Indo-Aryan by historical times, most likely killed one expansion of Dravidian languaes to Central and West. It has been observed that the rise of Maratha tribes(whose biggest lineage is H1) halted the spread of Kannada language in Maharashtra during medieval period.

Expansion of various lineages:
C, D(extinct) -> coastal migration -> negligible in India -> language unknown
F*,H,R*, R2 -> Iran/Afghanistan -> Austro-Asiatic, Burushaski
H, R2, R1a1, J2, G, L -> Pakistan, North-East India -> Dravidian, Austro-Asiatic, Burushaski
R*, R1a1, R2,H, J2, L -> Pakistan, Northern India -> Indo-Aryan
R2 -> Andhra Pradesh -> Dravidian
H1 -> Maharashtra -> Indo-Aryan

Expansion of various languages:
1. Austro-Asiatic:
South-East Asia-> Ganges-> Indus river
2. Dravidian :
Indus river -> West coastal India -> Krishna, Godavari in Central India(SD-II)
Indus river -> South-West coastal India-> Kaveri(SD-I)
3. Indo-Aryan:
Afghanistan-> Indus river -> Ganges-> Srilanka
Ganges -> West coastal India-> Krishna/Narmada river