tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8973162.post3177491088343976994..comments2024-03-27T16:44:31.600+05:30Comments on Stranded in the Present: Idea of a Nation - iiManju Edangamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00474338169829802934noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8973162.post-29395828438279603902010-10-26T23:59:25.895+05:302010-10-26T23:59:25.895+05:30@Milleu: I see those sects you mention as sectaria...@Milleu: I see those sects you mention as sectarian cults, whose effect in society is divisive. That's why religion must be only a private matter and never a public (social, political) one. <br /><br />Anyhow they are religious exceptions. More interesting are the Roma, who have embraced mainstream religions yet remain segregated and show little interest in integration. <br /><br /><br />@Manju:<br /><br />"I suppose legal immigrants may feel it was your necessity that made you to invite them".<br /><br />That's never the case. Oligarchs may "need" immigrants (cheap labor or whatever) but the bulk of natives do not (it's competence, not just in the economic aspect but also in the ethno-cultural one). So xenophobia makes sense and the only way to overcome it is becoming one with the host people, adopting their roots and concerns, becoming one of them. <br /><br />"Anyway, in India you don't go to any other linguistic state as a migrant but as a natural citizen of the land".<br /><br />The legal status is less relevant, the cultural one is instead. In the Basque Country the bulk of immigration has been historically from nearby Spanish regions (Castile, Galicia). Second generation people often embrace their Basque heritage anyhow, though others act as Trojan horse for foreign interests (that also happens with some natives, of course). <br /><br />I think that will also be the case for more modern immigrants from tropical Africa or Latin America. Muslims from North Africa however have an extra barrier to overcome: their religion (and all the fancy and often shocking customs it comes with such as ritual castration, negative status of women, not eating pork, etc.). Chinese immigrants have none of these religious barriers but as they tend to organize themselves along family lines separated from the society the fall in, they may tend to remain separated for some time longer - however in several generations they should be assimilated because there's no really deep cultural barrier. <br /><br />Of course, assimilation is a lot easier if immigrants come in drops rather than in floods. <br /><br />It is important that immigrant distinct communities tend to be dissolved in any case. <br /><br />I'm talking as descendant of immigrants, partly so. I've seen the original ones not really integrated (with all that means), the second generation ones much more integrated but sometimes keeping a weak spot for their foreign roots and the third generation ones totally part of the host society. This varies a lot depending on the individuals and how they face their migrant reality: there are first generation immigrants that blend almost perfectly too. Those are the best ones (and they do not need to renounce to anything, just embrace something else).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8973162.post-86773188280026001662010-10-26T23:01:23.718+05:302010-10-26T23:01:23.718+05:30The logical thing to do in India, would it follow ...<i>The logical thing to do in India, would it follow the same model, would be to make Hindi official, rather than English, which is more like a Latin of sorts.</i><br /><br />Hindu-Urdu is nothing but your Serbo-Croat.<br /><br />Why English is Latin? Legacy of Imperialism? It's irrelevant as Imperialism doesn't exist. I can even argue that Indian languages are vehicles of slavery considering the limited world view they gave to a big chunk of castes.<br /><br /><i>Also it is a sign of respect for the host population: if they are going to adopt you and your family, the least you can do is your best to become one with them.</i><br /><br />So you are telling them to be grateful for inviting? I suppose legal immigrants may feel it was your necessity that made you to invite them.<br /><br />Anyway, in India you don't go to any other linguistic state as a migrant but as a natural citizen of the land.<br /><br /><i>Well, when you emigrate you are bound to assimilate (f not you, your children) into the host culture or remain marginal and forever foreign (marginal).</i><br />You missed the first part of my statement. I mentioned in many linguistic regions even the stagnant sons of soil might be fans of cultural icons of different regions and not their own. In such cases, you cannot expect migrant sons of soil to have any respect to the native cultural icons. It is a learnt behaviour to have the view that your culture is superior or par with other cultures in the world or you should live with the burden of your culture. It's a different matter that you can develop it further.Manju Edangamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00474338169829802934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8973162.post-10671693079753998692010-10-26T19:53:15.509+05:302010-10-26T19:53:15.509+05:30@ Maju:
So it's logical for immigrants and th...@ Maju:<br /><br /><i>So it's logical for immigrants and their descendants to embrace the local culture in all aspects if they do not wish to remain as perpetual outsiders, with all the risks and disadvantages such status implies. </i><br /><br />It is logical but sometimes and especially if the host community is relatively more free and perhaps less homogenous, it is not necessary. Usually people do not like to change what they have, and they will adopt due to reasons that you suggested. But in many parts, eg jews in europe, many other ethnic communities like the parsis in india, there is no serious disadvantage to not assimiliating.<br /><br />I think that has been the strength of India too. And it would be sad if such revival movement hamper this spirit.milieuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16029969621924505200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8973162.post-64710616244963428882010-10-25T22:59:36.091+05:302010-10-25T22:59:36.091+05:30It's an interesting post, specially the analys...It's an interesting post, specially the analysis you make for "pre-1950 India" (wouldn't it be more like pre-1920 India?) because it is an analysis, a casuistic, that is pretty much universal. When France was invented as nation (and not merely feudal realm) in the advanced Middle Ages the trick was to make a widespread language the official language, instead of using Latin, Provenzal or German Frankish. The same happened to England, Castile-Spain, Russia and even to some extent Germany and Italy, where the dialect continuum was rather suddenly overlaid by an official dialect. In China too imposition of a unified Mandarin dialect is part of the persistent process of national unification. <br /><br />The logical thing to do in India, would it follow the same model, would be to make Hindi official, rather than English, which is more like a Latin of sorts. <br /><br />"... it might be unjustified to force migrant sons of soils to own local cultural icons".<br /><br />Well, when you emigrate you are bound to assimilate (f not you, your children) into the host culture or remain marginal and forever foreign (marginal). So it's logical for immigrants and their descendants to embrace the local culture in all aspects if they do not wish to remain as perpetual outsiders, with all the risks and disadvantages such status implies. <br /><br />Also it is a sign of respect for the host population: if they are going to adopt you and your family, the least you can do is your best to become one with them. <br /><br />Anyhow, in most cases, the descendants of immigrants belong in fact to the host population, unless they are a xenophobic sect... and even then. There's no way you will go to school and spend your youth among locals and not become one.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com